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outwarddoodles
March 5th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Assuming you had the capabilities and resources for your theriotype to live a fulfilling life; and that money and legalities were not an issue: Would you own a member of your theriotype's species?

I ask this because a lot of members here have theriotypes that would be considered exotic pets; would be illegal or unobtainable; and yet may still desire personal contact with their theriotypes despite the associated immpossibilities.

I'm curious to know what a lot of you have to say. Do you think it's alright to own exotic pets if they're properly attended to? Or do you fear treating wild animals as mere commodities? Are there certain conditions you want met before you'd think of own your theriotype? Do you feel you aren't capable of dealing with the more dangerous theriotypes.

Domestics are free to add their input here: How does 'owning' your fellow brethren feel to you? How desperate are you to have intimate contact with your therioside?

(I'll add my opinion once I see what others have to say here....)

cheetah
March 5th, 2009, 08:25 PM
I most certainly would. Only a cat doesn't get owned, it is the one doing the owning. But yes, I would live with a cheetah if at all possible.

NightStorm
March 5th, 2009, 08:29 PM
I'm curious to know what a lot of you have to say. Do you think it's alright to own exotic pets if they're properly attended to? Or do you fear treating wild animals as mere commodities? Are there certain conditions you want met before you'd think of own your theriotype? Do you feel you aren't capable of dealing with the more dangerous theriotypes.

Honestly it depends on circumstances.

I'm one of those people that is against on owning wolves and even wolf-hybrids. Wolves are highly social animals and I won't have the means to give them a rich healthy life. However....if by some means I do "own" a wolf (and arctic one) I would be in Sancuary faciality and not kept as pet but as ward. I will have responsiblity for it but I won't be "mine" really.

JPR
March 5th, 2009, 08:32 PM
I dont really know. I would love to own a wolf but I belive it would not be happy being out of its natural habitat. Wolves and even wolf hybrids need lost of care and a lot of room so unless I owned around 50 acres I would not own a wolf. As for wolf hybrids

they still have a wild side and still require speacial care such as room and diet. Ive been doing my reasearch and even owning a wolf hybrid takes alot of responsiblity. If I get one it will be when I have enough land and money to take care of it and when I feel responsible enough to do so.

cheetah
March 5th, 2009, 08:34 PM
But the question is supposed to be moral, not practical. We're assuming all needs are met. I think.

JPR
March 5th, 2009, 08:36 PM
If thats the case then I would put the money into making and maintaing a wolf sancuary but not owning a wolf. Wolves imo should not be owned no matter what the situation. If they are hurt or cannot survive in the wild thats what the sancuary would be fore.

Prowl
March 5th, 2009, 08:48 PM
No. I would not. You said 'if all needs were met' - and by definition, a tiger cannot be a pet, at least insofar as I understand our feelings. I would live with a tiger, if she were a therian, and my mate, of course. But that is something altogether different from 'pet'.

Undeniableguile
March 5th, 2009, 08:57 PM
I would be tempted, but mine might try to make a meal out of me if I moved in the wrong way... I would have to always be on guard, and be dominant at the very least. Not a very relaxing life.

...that's why kitties like Egyptian Mau's are so cool! They're magical, beautiful, loving, AND they won't eat you for supper! :D

JPR
March 5th, 2009, 08:57 PM
I would like to add if anyone is planning on getting a wolf-hybrid please do your reasearch. Alot of them end up being abused(not saying anyone here would) or in shelters because people dont know how to handle them. There are many useful websites out there that tell you what to expect when owning one.

outwarddoodles
March 5th, 2009, 08:59 PM
But the question is supposed to be moral, not practical. We're assuming all needs are met. I think.

Actually, less moral and practical, and more personal. I had not meant for this to be a moral debate at all. I'm not meaning to start a conversation about the ethics of exotic pets or zoos or anything of the like. : )

While I'm at it, here's a different look on the subject: How far would you go to MEET your theriotype, personally? Would you like to form a relationship with that animal?

JPR
March 5th, 2009, 09:03 PM
I accually have met my theriotype. I was able to be in a safe enviroment with 2 female artic wolves with there handler, and was able to meet 3 male Grey wolves as well. It was an amazing experiance to say the least. They are amazing animals up close. I rember the two females would follow me all around the habbitat I was in with them. They had been with humans there whole life due to being raised in a sanctuary and were very loving.

SerpentineZebra
March 5th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Well, from what I understand - based on what another member on here told me - cobras tend to be interesting but slightly temperamental (and easily distracted) pets. I would be lying if I said there wasn't at least a small part of me that didn't want to be close to a member of my theriotype (which I haven't figured out if I'm a specific cobra species or if I identify with cobras in general), but I don't know if I'd want something so potentially dangerous, even if it were Naja naja naja (Indian spectacled cobra - the one shown in my avatar) which is apparently one of the easiest to like and unlikely to bite.

And a jaguar? Heh... again, I wouldn't mind if I could safely meet one (keyword is SAFELY) and have tactile contact, then I would... but a pet? I can't see that I would want to deal with a giant feline when I can much more easily and just as effectively love a domestic cat and still feel connected to something resembling me in that way.

Arctos
March 5th, 2009, 09:39 PM
I can't say I would.

Part of that is that I'm frankly not very good at looking after pets. Sure, the Wolf could live here, but it would NOT be very happy at all. It would much prefer freedom in the wild to me looking after it, so I honestly would not, despite my wishes to get up close with an Arctic Wolf.

If I had the ability to own MULTIPLE wolves (so that they can have a pack) along with a HUGE area for them to live in, I wouldn't mind then. That more suits the needs of a Wolf instead.

ilrak
March 5th, 2009, 11:36 PM
If I could meet all of the needs for space, food, everything ... yes, I would love to live with a raven ... maybe a whole unkindness of ravens. :>

Arawn
March 6th, 2009, 12:10 AM
Not a therian, but I'm still going to answer: no because it would be like slavery because I think angels have free will ^_^

WolfVanZandt
March 6th, 2009, 12:58 AM
I would live with a wolf, yes. I'm not disparate to do so. I live in an apartment and can only have up to 10 pounds of pet and then I have to pay a $100 deposit, so I don't have a pet. But if I had a pet, it would be big enough to make me think "companion" - a wolf, wolf sized dog, bear, something.....

slyfor
March 6th, 2009, 03:05 AM
in a normal case, i dont think i would, foxes belong in the wild, not in a way to small household. I of all people should know that, being one myself and all.

Mikropardalia
March 6th, 2009, 07:04 AM
I'm with Prowl on this one. No I wouldn't want to keep a leopard in captivity if I had the chance. If I had the money I would rather take a trip to Africa and see them in the wild or a sanctuary.

I'm not against zoos or wild life parks keeping wild animals as long as they're in a nice environment and well looked after but personally I wouldn't want to do it.

SilverTiger
March 6th, 2009, 07:31 AM
If I had achres of Land that had a forest, and a river, and a huge house, I would maybe want to own a Tiger. But, I would not restrict it, put collars on it, and I would let it come and go as it pleases, not as a pet, but as an equal. I couldnt keep a Tiger locked up in a cage...

Meh, I just want to touch one, not really own one. ^^

elinox
March 6th, 2009, 10:30 AM
Given the right circumstances, yes I would. Having my theriotype close by would be fantastic. Of course, having enough money, land, time, etc. to devote to the proper care would be paramount.

TigerAcolyte
March 6th, 2009, 10:52 AM
No. I would never even think of owning a tiger as a pet, or owning it at all. I would accept responsibility for overseeing its health and welfare, but I would not declare that I own one of my own kind. Just like one does not 'own' a human being, I would not 'own' a tiger. As I see them, tigers are more like non-biological family to me.

Much like what SilverTiger said, if I had a reserve's worth of suitable tiger land and the money to maintain it, I would consider making a new friend or two. The danger does not concern me as it pertains to the scenario. The tiger should have its way on all matters...

....Okay, I'd like to be able to touch them, too, if only once.

KarlyUnique
March 6th, 2009, 12:49 PM
I would love to have my two theriotypes!
Except the Leopard would probably try to eat the Coyote! D=
But assuming that didn't happen, like they were raised together or something and didn't try to eat one another, it'd be great! =D

It'd be great. Running around with the beauties. Gods, that would be awesome.

DragonicWolf
March 6th, 2009, 02:29 PM
It would be nice to be in touch with the wild, but no. Not as pets. I am heavilly against this 'trend' nowadays.

I know a LOT of people want to keep wolves for vain self image or because they are simply obsessed with the animal. Wolf hybrids as well. I personally find the breeding of wolf hybrids cruel and selfish.

number one- People know that wolves are becoming one of the most popular and obsessed over animal in america, and that many people will simply want to buy one as a pet. So they continue to breed wolf hybrids or wolves for selling.

number two- People have a romantic notation with, getting in touch with the wild. But people dont realize that their wolf or hybrid will be in a psychological mess while you enjoy them being as your "pet". People are so intertwined with their own emotions that they forget about how the animal feels.

I personally think that if you want a pet that looks like a wolf so badly, get a dog that looks similar, animals that WANT to be kept as pets and to be mans best friend.

I personally think that a typical wild animal therian would understand the feelings of a wild animal being kept as a pet, and would much rather meet or at least see one in the wildnerness where they belong. They deserve respect.

That is my current view on things.

cheetah
March 6th, 2009, 07:06 PM
Actually, less moral and practical, and more personal. I had not meant for this to be a moral debate at all. I'm not meaning to start a conversation about the ethics of exotic pets or zoos or anything of the like. : )

While I'm at it, here's a different look on the subject: How far would you go to MEET your theriotype, personally? Would you like to form a relationship with that animal?

I'd swim all the way to Africa for the chance to form a bond with a cheetah. There is nothing, almost nothing that I would not do.

KarlyUnique
March 6th, 2009, 07:17 PM
I'd swim all the way to Africa for the chance to form a bond with a cheetah. There is nothing, nothing that I would not do.This reminds me of the "never say never" quote. Don't say there is nothing you wouldn't do. I'm sure if someone told you to kill some people you wouldn't do it, would you? :eek:

Prowl
March 6th, 2009, 07:24 PM
My cousin once said he'd eat anything for $1, and for a while he got away with it. Then my sister gave him a whole serving spoon full of pure Wasabi powder. (Yes, she did warn him how horrible it would be, to which he unwisely replied, "So?" and popped it in his mouth)

Now when she asks him to try anything, he almost always says "NO WAY!".

All a matter of perspective, I suppose. *toothy grin*

cheetah
March 6th, 2009, 07:34 PM
This reminds me of the "never say never" quote. Don't say there is nothing you wouldn't do. I'm sure if someone told you to kill some people you wouldn't do it, would you? :eek:

No, I wouldn't. Correcting.

Leeds
March 6th, 2009, 08:14 PM
I'd swim all the way to Africa for the chance to form a bond with a cheetah. There is nothing, almost nothing that I would not do.

I would very much love to bond with a wolf. In fact, the last trip to the wolf preserve I took, I howled and howled and howled and the wolves howled but then got bored. Except for one guy. I couldnt see him. I didnt know if he was sectioned off somewhere else or he just didnt want to get up and come to the gate. Hell, he could have even been a therian for all I knew. But he would ALWAYS answer, no matter how many times I howled. And I felt very connected to this deep howled wolf I couldnt see. He enjoyed howling with me.

And then there was this new Artic wolf pup who I fell in love with. I cant wait to see him again. As soon as the weather breaks a little I'll go again.

But back to the topic...would I ever want to OWN a wolf? No. Absolutely not. I struggle with myself over owning any type of pets. Its a losing situation. On one hand, I need animals in my life. On the other, I hate watching my ferrets lying on the floor bored and under stimulated. It doesnt seem like a very enjoyable life. And I would think dogs and wolves would need even more stimulation. I just dont think they'd like being cooped up. Even a ranch would probably get boring to a wolf quickly.

Alunia
March 6th, 2009, 08:54 PM
If by "own" you mean "live in harmony alongside" then yea, if it were possible in some magical mysterious way that didn't hinder or hurt either parties. Since you're aiming for the "what if" as opposed to the "oh it'd be unfair to blablablabla" *purrs* :)

Kenai
March 7th, 2009, 03:24 AM
A very interesting question.

I don't believe I'd ever want to own a wolf as a pet for two reasons. One, the safety of myself and family. Wild animals are just that, wild. And that's not something that can ever be trained out of them. Two, I would never want to subject a wolf to the containment of a human lifestyle. It would hurt my very spirit be the one to hinder such wildness from being what it was truly meant to be.

BUT! I wouldn't mind having a wolf/dog hybrid. Not now of course, I have small children about the house. But later when they're grown and I'd have time to properly train it.. that'd be too cool :D

outwarddoodles
March 7th, 2009, 02:41 PM
Alright, my thoughts:

This question arose in my mind mainly because Margays are considered popular exotic pets for those who desire more-than-just-a-house-cat.(In fact, they're considered "highly attractive" due to their gorgeous pelts, large eyes, and graceful physiques. *wink wink*) They're easily obtainable, and are captured regularly for captivity.

And yes, I will say flatly that I have thoroughly considered owning a Margay -- though I doubt I ever will.

Why would I want to?: One, it'd be amazing! I dream of handling a margay at least once in my lifetime -- to have that personal one-on-one connection with the animal I veiw to have an intrinsic connection with.

Secondly, I'm not against the principle of exotic pets when it comes to the welfare of the animals. Nor zoos in that case. I don't believe captivity robs animals of their freedom. As long as the zoo/owner provide the animal with adequate spacing, dietary necessities, and stimulation; I believe that animals in zoos are given the most superb freedom of all: Survival. I believe if I owned a margay, I would be devoted to it's welfare and happiness.

Why I DON'T want a margay: I'm against the principle of treating wild animals as commodities, and I don't want to encourage that paradigm -- even if my Margay were happy. I don't want to own an exotic pet because it's 'cool,' and I don't want to deprive them of their integrety as a species that should not be regarded as a domesticated pet that just anyone can have.

Secondly, in terms of accomodations, I've afraid that if I owned a margay, it would be the ONLY pet I could have for the next 12 - 18 years. Yeah, they're housecat sized, but I an easily see one killing other cats, dogs, and attacking small children; it may be friendly, but a playful margay wouldn't know when to stop. I don't want to own a potentially atavistic animal.

In conclusion: I would LOVE to own a margay, but I don't think I ever would unless I was somehow returning some sort of service to the margay world. And when I say that, I mean: I would either like to own a margay that would be incapable of living in the wild (for whatever reason), or own a margay that participated in a breeding program.

Maybe...one day.... when I'm ludicrously rich and famous, I'll pay a zoo to let me hold a margay. ; P

wolffriend
March 7th, 2009, 02:47 PM
I am planning on adopting and living with dogs in the future, so yes. About specific breed, well, we'll see if that's how things play out. But there are several breeds of dog that I wouldn't mind living with.

Kassidy
March 7th, 2009, 04:37 PM
German Shepherd Dogs? Yes, I have several already. Wolves? No, definitely not. Wolfdog hybrids? Also no, definitely not. I do not feel that either are meant to be, nor would they fully be happy as what most people would consider "pets." The only two wolf hybrids I personally know who even come close are wheel dogs on a fellow musher's team. They are wonderful boys (brothers) and were turned into a shelter after some dumbo realized he had bitten off more than he could chew by bringing them into his household. So, my musher friend was called by the shelter and she has had them since.

I do not, however, really approve of the intentional breeding of wolfdogs. Wolves are wild creatures and belong in the wild. There are many breeds out there nowadays that have been developed by breeding back to wolves... such as the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, the Saarloos Wolfhound, etc. (many of which, including the two mentioned, are the result of crossing GSDs with Timber or Carpathian wolves). A lot of these breeds have stemmed from the fascination with the wolf and some people's desire to have some way to domestically harness the "mystical creatures of the wild" and gain that beauty and attachment to the wilderness and its creatures through their new "pet." A word of advice to those seeking such beauty and attachment... take up hiking. ;)

Originally, these crosses were done in an attempt to regain some of the lost stability of structure that many GSDs today (American showlines in particular with their overangulation and horribly sloped toplines) now lack, plus to try to get more working ability, strength, speed, and drive. The breeders of said crosses, however, have unfortunately accomplished neither. :( The resulting dogs/breeds have become more square, yes, but they are also generally very large... which creates a loss in agility and speed to begin with. They also have lost a TON of drive, confidence, and willingness to please and quickness to bond with humans. These breeds are by no means working dogs suitable for Police, Customs, Search and Rescue, or, often times, even more heavy sport work... as they simply do not have the drive that their GSD relatives possess (at least, that the good working line GSDs have). They are BEAUTIFUL animals and amazing to see and watch in motion (I have met several at various dog sport events) but I would not choose them as a work/sport canidate. They just don't have the confidence with normal, hectic, human situations that my GSDs do... it would also take a lot more work before off-lead reliability could be established.

But anyway... my slight tangent in regards to dog breeding and working vs show lines aside, I would be happy to help rehab or reinstate wolves into the wild, or place wolfdogs in appropriate homes/wolf santuaries... but never breeding nor owning them.

As for the other part of this... yes, if it were possible through some great miracle for me to coexist in the wild with wolves... I'd jump at the opportunity. Alas, that is not the case in today's world, however.

Lashana
March 7th, 2009, 11:44 PM
Once again, assuming that absolutely ALL needs were met, yes. I would love to own a Wolf Reserve. As that is very unlikely to ever happen, I am considering getting a low-percentage Wolf Hybrid. I've began doing research, but I will of course do MUCH more before taking a vital step. I'm not in a situation yet where any big dog is an option, but I do want a big dog even if I don't get an actual hybrid.

As far as going to meet your theriotype, I intend to drive about 8 hours to New Jersey to the Reserve up there, after I get my camera and I can take my vacation time. I have never seen a wolf in real life, and it's something that seems of vital importance to me.

Kassidy
March 8th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Lashana,

If you decide to purchase a wolfdog cross, I really, really urge you to NOT get one from a breeder who intentionally breeds pure wolves to dogs, especially in the US. In every situation I have had experience with in regards to those setups, the breeding stock used is very sub-par... is not titled, trained, or health certified in any way. A good breeder takes the time to really work with their dogs and get health clearances on all stock, like OFA, PennHip, CERF, BAER, etc. Beyond that, even simple titles like CGCs are very good to see on dogs of that nature.

So, if you must get a low-percentage wolfdog hybrid/cross, please instead consider getting a Saarloos, Czech Wolfdog, or similar breed (and, even a good one of those are much more likely to have to be imported than one being found in the US since their numbers here are so low). I know individuals with both and can put you into contact with them in order to help find a breeder for you to work with in the future.

Please keep in mind, though, that they are by no means your typical pet and every one I have met tend to be flightly, anxious, and do not adapt to change well at all. They can be wonderful with immediate family and those they see often, but are not very confident outside of their "security circle." And the people who own and raise the breeds themselves will tell you the same thing.

Psychonomaly
March 8th, 2009, 06:48 PM
I have two pet rats, and I don't think of it as ownership so much as family. I fully intend on assimilating a wolf/husky hybrid into the family when I have the time/space/funds. I would never want to "own" a wolf, but I'm planning to undergo a three month internship at Wolf Park in IN eventually, and hopefully work there in the long run.

Thank-you, Cassidy, for the guidance above. I'll definitely bear that in mind for future reference. My younger brother was raised with a wolf hybrid, and it was one of the gentlest, well-adjusted animals I've ever had the pleasure of knowing.

Kassidy
March 9th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Psychonomaly, That's how I see it as well. I use the term "ownership," more for legality or convenience purposes... but, in reality, I really consider them friends and family.

As for the hybrid bit, I'm not so much opposed to "owning" one that is a rehabbing rescue or the like. However, I am opposed to the intentional breeding of wolves or wolfdogs for pet purposes. The ONLY reason I can see and condone for breeding wolves in captivity is as part of a repopulation project... with the intent to reintroduce the parents and pups into the wild (which is a very complicated thing to do to begin with). But to breed them just for the sake of having a kennel, your own pack, or a personal pet? No.

I am glad to see, at least, that those interested in the option, however, seem to also be serious about learning more though extensive volunteer time at wolf park/sanctuary/rescue orgs and facilities... and adopting a wolfdog already existing there and in need of a caretaker/pack/family... not in going to a "breeder" (and I use the term very loosely) of wolfdogs.

JPR
March 9th, 2009, 04:49 PM
I agree with you Kassidy and Psychonomaly. I consider all my animals familly not pets. I was going to get a hybrid through my neighbor who has one herself. Her freinds had a litter of pups and was going to give one to me. My neighbor however sat me down and had a long talk to me about if I though I was ready to own one. She told me alot of info about them that I didnt know and convinced me to not get one. I am however looking into getting a Czech Wolfdog and have been doing alot of reasearch about them. I have looked for Wolf rescues around me so I could go and volunteer or at least donate to them but sadly there are none around me.

Psychonomaly, If you are planning on getting one and need info. I have alot of links with information about them if you want and or need it.

Psychonomaly
March 10th, 2009, 09:26 PM
Thank-you, JPR. I don't see that happening any time soon, but I could definitely use the links.

My mother's new wolf puppy:

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/Psychonomaly/Wolfpup.jpg

Ulfnar
March 11th, 2009, 12:56 AM
I would love nothing more.

DragonicWolf
March 11th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I was searching youtube for videos and came across this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8Swm7q8ikc&feature=related

A lot of the comments i have seen by people are jumping to conclusions or simply saying OMG THEY ARE SO CUTE I WANT TO BUY ONE!!

Somehow I find this a big issue for a lot of wolf lives out there.

Yes the pups are cute, and that is the problem as well. Ive also noticed that more than 80% of the wolf pet videos I have seen are when they are still puppies. I have yet to come across more than 1 or 2 videos with adult wolves or wolf hybrids. Im sure that this means something.

Misfit
March 11th, 2009, 05:05 PM
Of course. Bunnies are nonthreatening and adorable.

Amourosa Wolfsight
March 11th, 2009, 05:51 PM
If I could meet all the criteria you mentioned, I'm not sure it would be possible to *own* wolves and truly be part of a wolf pack. However, if it were possible, then yes, I would.
*daydreams of "owning" a wolf*

Placebo
March 11th, 2009, 08:07 PM
No way. Hyenas (especially female hyenas) are waaayyy too dangerous for that.

DragonicWolf
March 13th, 2009, 12:51 PM
For some reason, ever since this topic has been up, ive had this very strange "heartache -like" feeling. It feels like anger, anxiety, and guilt. No rational reason for it yet... it just makes me feel like howling.

Kiya
March 14th, 2009, 01:01 AM
I don't know if it was meant to happen in this way, but just as I read the main posting of this thread, Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" popped onto my media player.

And it's quite fitting...
Considering I would never be able to own a fox. No matter how adorable, and in my biased opinion the MOST adorable of all the animals I've seen, they are... I wouldn't be able to bring myself to pen one up. And even if I were able to give it everything it could ever want as far as money can go - that is - I still wouldn't do it.

A fox, like all wild animals, has a wild spirit, a true natural soul. And to keep something so beautiful to myself would not only deprive it of all the wonders of the world, but it would deprive the world of one less amazing chance crossing with such a wondrous creature.

After all, Fox's just wanna have fun.
:]

Wiley
March 14th, 2009, 01:36 AM
Considering the other foxes here (all 2 of them) have answered the question for me already, I feel like I'm being redundant.

Oh well--it's a definite "no" for me as well. Kiya, you make a good point when you say they belong in the wild. Besides that, someone could never truly "own" a fox, just as many would say you never really "own" a cat. They both have to accept you before they display any sort of affection.

Like those jokes always say: in Soviet Russia, fox (or cat) owns you.

Kiya
March 14th, 2009, 02:36 AM
Considering the other foxes here (all 2 of them) have answered the question for me already, I feel like I'm being redundant.

Oh well--it's a definite "no" for me as well. Kiya, you make a good point when you say they belong in the wild. Besides that, someone could never truly "own" a fox, just as many would say you never really "own" a cat. They both have to accept you before they display any sort of affection.

Like those jokes always say: in Soviet Russia, fox (or cat) owns you.

Hahahaha.
Ohhhh.... Yakov Smirnov. Or however you spell his name.
Gotta love him. :]


I think ti goes to show a somewhat interesting statistic though. I mean, that for the most part fox therians and friendlies would, for the most part, not own their theriotype.

Could be by chance, or maybe it's just another aspect of the Fox mentality.
Caring and understanding for a fellow fox, and not wanting to tie them down...
For me it's empathy. I would hate being put in a box. No matter how big and pretty the box is... it's still a box.
And I'd never do that to any other fox.

it's nice to know I'm not alone in that thought process.

CriesontheWind
March 14th, 2009, 03:06 PM
I have thought about this for a while, my step-father knew a woman who kept a wolf companion, and I have always wondered how I might go about finding a sanctuary or something...living in close proximity to wolves....Shaun Ellis (The "Wolfman") is basically living my dream.....And i woud'nt OWN them...they would be my companions and animals to be respected

Amaryllis
April 2nd, 2009, 01:32 AM
I would love nothing more than to own a Mastiff, though it would be more of a friend or even a child rather than a pet. I have a feeling it would get treated pretty much like an equal.

Shonsu
April 2nd, 2009, 03:08 AM
It is funny that you should ask this. I have been looking into exotic pet lisences recently because I have found that a number of people do own arctic foxes.
It's needless to say that I would be thrilled to adopt one and have it as a sibling. I recently was able to see my theriotype at a zoo in Colorado and it was a breath taking experience. I was so enthralled, exhillerated, elated to finally look upon myself in a way. I almost wanted to jump over the fence and play with them but I managed to restrain myself.

I feel as though this idea of taking in one of my own may not be a wise decision. I believe that we (foxes) belong in our natual habitat which we are buil to survive in. Even if I had teo hundred acres which the blessed little ceature could explore its whole life, I do not think that it would grow to feel any attatchment to me as this is not our nature. We are solitary animals that do not live in packs. The only acception is a mother caring for her kits or a small group of arctic foxes living in a habitat that is suffering from famine.

Aside from all of that, we're unloyal, dont take orders, semi destructive, and overall cheeky little buggers.
No. I'm afraid I shall let them be free to the world.

I wont lie though. I would love to be near one again :D

Kassidy
April 2nd, 2009, 06:15 PM
Aside from all of that, we're unloyal, dont take orders, semi destructive, and overall cheeky little buggers.
No. I'm afraid I shall let them be free to the world.

I wont lie though. I would love to be near one again :D

Heh. I found that personality description to be pretty amusing. :) Good for you, though, having such a understanding of and respect for your theriotype.

Akai
April 5th, 2009, 12:59 AM
*blushes*
A...assuming all needs are met...yeah...I wouldn't mind being the "owner" of at least a king cheetah, even if a regular cheetah. It's crazy, I feel, but assuming paradise on earth, yes...

As far as meeting my theriotype, you've no idea how disappointed I was when my most recent chance to do so was denied do to their running exhibit closed until the day after! >_<

WhiteFox
April 5th, 2009, 01:17 AM
Aside from all of that, we're unloyal, dont take orders, semi destructive, and overall cheeky little buggers.

Damn straight! XD Though it seems the females are more so than males, LOL.

Basty
April 5th, 2009, 10:52 PM
As many of my fellow cat therians have stated before, one does not own a cat of any type, however, I would love to provide a loving, safe and secure home for a cheetah. As for horses, well my parents breed them, so I get to be around them quite a lot.

I am, actually planning on getting a veterinary tech degree at the local tech college, then getting some zoology courses under my belt so, in the very least, I can get the chance to work with cheetahs. If I could have contact with them, even on the zoo/animal park level, that would make me purr happily for years to come. :-)

CroweBasalt
April 5th, 2009, 11:02 PM
if i had the money, the room and the means, i'd love to own a close cousin, the African pied crow. in fact, a good friend of mine owns a pair of them, and when i visited her in January, i had the amazing opportunity of being pooped on by my theriotype. XD

enlightening.

Kumiho
April 5th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Shonsu said pretty much all that I could say in regards to owning an animal of my theriotype as a pet. Well put, Shonsu :)

Crossfire21
April 6th, 2009, 12:19 AM
I agree with Shonsu as well, I would like to live around them though. I have only seen one fox (ironically a cross fox) in my town little alone this state.

Kassidy
April 6th, 2009, 09:21 AM
in fact, a good friend of mine owns a pair of them, and when i visited her in January, i had the amazing opportunity of being pooped on by my theriotype. XD

Hahaha... lucky you. :p

Ice Blitz
April 7th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Funny this topic should come up.

As a wolf I love nothing better than being with wolves. Which is partly why I decided to become a wildlife biologist, and specilize in wolves. I've also been planning to start a wolf sanctuary of my own after I "retire". This wont be for maybe 40 years or so, but its been a dream of mine for awhile.

Also, while not a theriotype, I love hawks, and have been an avid fan of falconry for the longest time. I'd like to one day get a liscence and a bird to hunt with, but first I need to have the time and space available for training. Being a poor college student, I make do with volunteering at a raptor center.

moonwolf
April 7th, 2009, 06:40 PM
This is waaaay politically incorrect, but when I was first at college, studying wildlife science, a man who claimed to be a trapper came around with three wolf pups, their eyes still closed, and claimed he would kill them if none of us students took them. So, I acquired a wolf companion. Also living with me were a Siamese cat and a 6' boa constrictor, so we were quite the little family. He was gentle, affectionate, and dominated by the cat, as we all were (except the snake). Unfortunately, when he was 10 months old, I was hospitalized for six months. The person who was to watch him for me couldn't handle him, and sent him to the zoo. And there he quit eating and passed away. I would never take another animal out of its natural habitat again; it seems a death sentence, even if the creature doesn't physically die.

Sareth
April 7th, 2009, 07:13 PM
I would love to have a Black Jaguar around, but One. I don't know how I would feel taking it from its natural habitat unless it was an orphan and young enough that it couldn;t survive on its own. Two. Melanistic Cats of any kind are rare, especially with Jaguars, leopards are more common to melanism than Jaguars. But I suppose I shall have to settle for a domestic cat? lol

en_causa_sui
April 8th, 2009, 01:19 AM
If all it's needs were met AND there was nowhere else it could go (a better equipped zoo, a sanctuary, a person with more experience, etc) we would glady offer our home to a canadian lynx.

We are VERY against taking animals out of their natural habitat for any reason other than circumstances (caused by stupid humans) threaten the animal and/or its species OR if natural distaster has made the area uninhabitable by life (aka flood or fire). Other than that, humans need to stay out of mother nature's way...especially for superficial materialistic reasons.

DragonicWolf
April 8th, 2009, 04:50 AM
I think i have a reason now why I am so sensitive and angry towards people keeping wolves as pets. Ive always wondered why I howled in anger and angst when I hear of people keeping wolves.

I did a past life regression thing and apparently in my past life I was a wolf PET. I was being kept by this old lady. I loved her and looked up to her, but I was still a wild animal, and felt completely isolated. Although I was on an extremely long chain outside in a natural environment, it did not feel right. I am not sure for what reason but, I was shot to death by a man the old woman knew.

I am not sure how accurate these things are but they have cleared up my thoughts a hell of a lot for me.

Elidolente
April 8th, 2009, 05:15 AM
I think i have a reason now why I am so sensitive and angry towards people keeping wolves as pets. Ive always wondered why I howled in anger and angst when I hear of people keeping wolves.

I did a past life regression thing and apparently in my past life I was a wolf PET. I was being kept by this old lady. I loved her and looked up to her, but I was still a wild animal, and felt completely isolated. Although I was on an extremely long chain outside in a natural environment, it did not feel right. I am not sure for what reason but, I was shot to death by a man the old woman knew.

I am not sure how accurate these things are but they have cleared up my thoughts a hell of a lot for me.

ouch...that is harsh DW....
man, really, that sucks, I am sorry, *hugs*

DragonicWolf
April 8th, 2009, 05:23 AM
ouch...that is harsh DW....
man, really, that sucks, I am sorry, *hugs*

Im alright ^^, it is a thing of the past. But seeing it through the regression was a little bit traumatizing.

Amaryllis
April 8th, 2009, 10:26 AM
That would be terrible. You poor thing.

outwarddoodles
April 8th, 2009, 11:21 AM
This is waaaay politically incorrect, but when I was first at college, studying wildlife science, a man who claimed to be a trapper came around with three wolf pups, their eyes still closed, and claimed he would kill them if none of us students took them. So, I acquired a wolf companion. Also living with me were a Siamese cat and a 6' boa constrictor, so we were quite the little family. He was gentle, affectionate, and dominated by the cat, as we all were (except the snake). Unfortunately, when he was 10 months old, I was hospitalized for six months. The person who was to watch him for me couldn't handle him, and sent him to the zoo. And there he quit eating and passed away. I would never take another animal out of its natural habitat again; it seems a death sentence, even if the creature doesn't physically die.

Aww, that's terrible. But at least you gave the wolf cub a few good months to live.

But this highlights a good reason why I would opt out of owning an exotic pet -- what happened when I'm incapacitated? To own an exotic pet chains your actions around the special care and welfare of that animal, and I'm quite fond of the fact that I can go on vacation and leave my cats with somebody else.

Mori
April 8th, 2009, 11:59 AM
I saw an Akita/German Shepherd/Mexican Brown wolf hybid yesterday. I'd want a mix so there was that wolf appearence but a domestic mindset. :3
That way s/he would't be heartbroken about being a pet. And I would most likely try looking through the pounds first.

Kassidy
April 8th, 2009, 04:25 PM
...but hybrids don't tend to have that "domestic mindset" either. I know and have worked with quite a few, and have worked with many wolf-dog derived breeds as well (Czech Wolfdog, Saarloos, etc). They're really not very outgoing, social, or bond all that strongly (or, at least, not in the fashion a dog would). There are a couple exceptions out there, but they are by far not the norm.

Amourosa Wolfsight
April 8th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Dude, I own a *goldfish* and I have to put a lot of resources into its well-being. Water temperature, condition, space, lighting, health, food, more fish? less fish? is it healthy? is it hiding? injury, sickness, tank problems, equipment replacement. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I've got my little fishy, and I intend to have my own little pack of dogs, but the exotic pet thing is a little too troublesome. I picked a goldfish over tropical fish for just that reason.

However, as I stated earlier in this thread, I would take in a grey or timber wolf if I thought I could care for it adequately with environment, socialization, etc. I'd like a wolfdog, but to own a wolf I need the conditions to be just right.

Akai
April 8th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Other than that, humans need to stay out of mother nature's way...especially for superficial materialistic reasons.
For materialistic desires, yes. But, I don't think humans need to stay out of mother nature's way per se. I think humans should stop trying to harm and manipulate nature (externally), but I feel humanity needs to return to nature. I dunno about the whole hunter-gather thing, but return somehow, mayhaps akin to how Native Americans used to.

WhiteFox
April 9th, 2009, 01:06 AM
mayhaps akin to how Native Americans used to.

Which ones? There were hunter-gatherers, horticulturalists, agriculturalists, those that were focused on peace and those that were focused on war, those that believed humans were great and those that equated humans with the other animals, etc etc etc.

So many tribes, so many possibilities (and people always neglect the !Kung...poor things). Besides, who's to say that the farmers of Medieval Europe weren't well-established with Nature as well? After all, most texts from that era do not come from them, they came from the religious leaders and wealthy, people that were easily distanced from Nature (as we call it) in many ways.

And last but not least, if you go back far enough, all our ancestors were hunter-gatherers as well. It's a part of HUMAN history, not just Native American.

DragonicWolf
April 9th, 2009, 02:40 AM
I saw an Akita/German Shepherd/Mexican Brown wolf hybid yesterday. I'd want a mix so there was that wolf appearence but a domestic mindset. :3
That way s/he would't be heartbroken about being a pet. And I would most likely try looking through the pounds first.(I made a really really long post earlier but when I submitted it, the page could not be displayed, and the text was lost ._.)

Like what Kassidy already said, wolfdogs are not domestic. In fact, they can be even more dangerous than pure wolves because they often live in a psychological mess, not knowing whether to be a wolf or a dog, to be a wild animal or mans best friend. Yes, some wolfdog pets have had 'seemingly' good lives , but how about the rest of the litter? They might have not been so lucky. The wolf and wolfdog reserve are already full of abandoned wolves and wolfdogs, why encourage the trade by buying more? Also when one person buys a wolfdog and other see it, the other people will be wanting to get one as well. It causes a chain reaction. Including adopting one.

Are huskies or malamutes not good enough for people? Is the "look" what people really want rather than the lifelong relation with their dog? Why do people want an animal that is extremely demanding and difficult to handle rather than an animal that is MEANT to be man's four legged companion? Is it for the sake of vanity or the 'specialness' of it?

I highly discourage people from buying wolves or wolfdogs, but I cant stop you.

Kassidy
April 9th, 2009, 09:29 AM
I couldn't agree more, DraconicWolf.

Breeding for that "look" is even more prevalent overseas... where many are dang near obsessed with having a "pet" that has that "wild, untamed" feel and appearance. But these hybrids and pure wolves are not meant to be your "pet" or companion. Most wolfdogs (or breeds recently derived from those crossings) are, as DraconicWolf said, a psychological mess. Same with pure wolves kept as pets. I've worked with a whole lot of them... and guess how many were stable, fully social, mentally and physically challenged enough? Two brothers who ended up with a pro musher (friend of mine). They ended up there after some bozo thought it'd be a cool idea to have a couple wolfdogs in his house and later realized he couldn't handle them. They were surrendered to the local police, who took them to the pound (who would have euthanized them on site, had an employee not been friends with my musher friend and asked her to come evaluate and take them). And you would not believe the amount of time and effort it takes to keep these two boys happy. It is far more than any typical family would be able to provide... 10+ miles per day of running is just the beginning!

Also, you're not going to find a wolfdog or pure wolf in your local pound or shelter. If any ever were to end up there, they'd be euthanized immediately... just like those two brothers would have been. It's sad, yes, but those are the facts. If you're looking for a new canine friend, however, there are countless dogs in need of homes (many of them "wolfish" in appearance, if that's what you like) out there in shelters and rescues. Why not give one of them a loving home?

I also find it very strange that many people I talk with online or meet claim to have or have had a wolfdog... and then I see pics of the "wolfdog" or work with it in person and, well, I can tell you for a fact that these people are either just full of wishful thinking or some "breeder" lied to them and said the Husky mix or White Shepherd or whatever is part wolf. BS. A wolfdog or pure wolf looks and behaves drastically different than their dog cousins.

Sorry to be so negative... but the more I think about this (and with each post, as I have several in this thread already), given my personal experience, the more it sits very poorly with me.

MissCuriosity
April 9th, 2009, 09:20 PM
i would wana own a fox yes, and im one of those ppl who goes around talking to animals like we speak the same language. but yea.......

Akai
April 9th, 2009, 10:56 PM
Which ones? There were hunter-gatherers, horticulturalists, agriculturalists....
Well, what do you know?! Slap me silly and call me ignorant! I hope I didn't offended anybody! =^_^=;;;

Well, hard for me to say what I mean, but basically, make love and peace with thy neighbor, be they human or not. =^_^=

WhiteFox
April 9th, 2009, 11:01 PM
Well, what do you know?! Slap me silly and call me ignorant! I hope I didn't offended anybody! =^_^=;;;

Well, hard for me to say what I mean, but basically, make love and peace with thy neighbor, be they human or not. =^_^=

Lol, it's not like you meant anything negative by it, no worries. But Native American studies happens to be one of my "things" (actually hoping to get a major in it...or at least a minor), so I like to at least get the info out there when it's appropriate.

You just simply gave me a reason to do so :D

DragonicWolf
June 3rd, 2009, 06:03 AM
There is this arguement going on about wolves/wolfdogs as pets, one side being supportive of it and me and a few other people rejecting it. I would like some views, even though I know I will not change my mind about it because i feel strongly about keeping wolves and wolfdogs away from the pet trade.

Any support is greatly appreciated and any views, even against mine, are welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUbmt-ze_os

remember, it went on for a few pages, one page is not enough.

weredog717
June 3rd, 2009, 12:55 PM
I live with an entire pack of dogs. I guess those of us with domestic theriotypes are lucky in that respect. I don't think I own them so much as I look upon them as brothers and sisters.

BlackWolf
June 3rd, 2009, 02:43 PM
I agree fully with DragonicWolf, I would rather get a husky or another dog any day because most wolfdogs/wolves are abandoned because people do *not* know how to take care of them. Or they can't because they are wild.

GestaltZe
June 3rd, 2009, 03:06 PM
I would absolutely not want to own a wolf, let alone a red wolf. I would, however, love to own dogs (that is, plural) for the rest of my life, and that's the closest I'd like to come to my theriotype. Wolves are not meant to be kept as pets, and I don't condone wolfdogs, wolves in zoos, or wolves as pets. In fact, the only reason I support the International Wolf Center is because of their complete and total devotion to the animals and to educating the public about them.

weredog717
June 3rd, 2009, 03:33 PM
I befriended a stray wolf dog when I was about six. He was a huge animal. He used to hang around my house all the time. He was given to some neighbors by someone about three hours away, but the neighbors didn't care for him and just let him roam. I loved that dog. He followed me everywhere. Eventually the fat fuck next door called the pound on him, and I ended up calling my mom at work crying my eyes out because I was terrified he'd be put to sleep. We couldn't afford to keep him, so mom contacted the original owners who were pissed at the way he'd been treated by the people they gave him to. They came and got him.

Eter
June 3rd, 2009, 03:49 PM
I would want to have a wolf, but I don't know if I could live with one...

DragonicWolf
June 4th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Thanks for your insight guys. Its nice to know that you guys have a similar mindset in this situation as mine. Ive finished worrying about teaching that acaibunch guy something, because he has officially sickened me with his thinking. This was the last thing that he has said:

"And how do you know that you are robbing wolves of anything.
They were created for man, not the other way around. Animals were created for our use, benefit and companionship.
They were meant to be domesticated for Man's use.
Anyway, wolves are REAL dogs, the ones we have now are genetic mutations. ICK! Who'd want that?"

So basically he is saying that wolves are meant to be mans pets and dogs are so uncool and so unwild that it sickens him to keep something so 'common'. I just hope that people do not follow his word.


I befriended a stray wolf dog when I was about six. He was a huge animal. He used to hang around my house all the time. He was given to some neighbors by someone about three hours away, but the neighbors didn't care for him and just let him roam. I loved that dog. He followed me everywhere. Eventually the fat fuck next door called the pound on him, and I ended up calling my mom at work crying my eyes out because I was terrified he'd be put to sleep. We couldn't afford to keep him, so mom contacted the original owners who were pissed at the way he'd been treated by the people they gave him to. They came and got him.


It would be great to befriend a stray wolf, one that seeks companionship and is not forced on him.

So he is alright now right?

weredog717
June 4th, 2009, 09:32 AM
Sadly my wolfdog friend has probably passed on by now. It's been at least twenty years since I knew him. I certainly wish dogs and other canines had longer lifespans. By befriending a dog, you know that the time will come when you will have to grieve for him. It's a sad enevitability. I only hope that the wolfdog and every other canine friend I've lost is in a better place now and that I'll see them again someday.

Spiritfox Autumnsong
June 4th, 2009, 10:01 AM
As much as I hate fox fur farms, I know I can't shut them down. I would find one, and talk to the owner about adopting one of the foxes whether they're domesticated, caged, or free ranged (I don't know how those places work).

gingercat
June 4th, 2009, 05:40 PM
yes I have a cat. Not a ginger cat, but still I have a cat.

Agita
June 6th, 2009, 05:54 AM
I would love to 'own' a wolf- I 'own' a cat, but really and truly he is just another member of the home pack, like my brother and parents. If anything, the cat owns me.

Cat: Come here NOW! *sits on me* It is time for grooming...

So if I had a 'pet' wolf, It's just be another pack member, I also live on the verge of a large open area of grass where the neighbor takes me for Walkies with her dog *wag wag*

DragonicWolf
June 7th, 2009, 12:33 PM
So if I had a 'pet' wolf, It's just be another pack member, I also live on the verge of a large open area of grass where the neighbor takes me for Walkies with her dog *wag wag* But whether people say their pets are their companions, friends, or family, they are still pets. My beautiful maltese is a true part of the family, but logically she is still a pet and I own her.
Sometimes I just find these excuses people give to keep something... you know, unique. When I ask people why they want to buy wolves as pets, they say to me :" Its not gonna be a pet, its gonna be a companion. That's different." Honestly, its not really.

Why not get a malamute or husky instead? They are wonderful animals and would make a great 'pack' member. ;)

Love wolves but leave them their free spirits, don't keep them for yourself. God loved birds and created trees, man loved birds and created cages.

Magoo-Tora
June 7th, 2009, 01:07 PM
I would hate owning a bear!!

I would never go out and adopt one, or 'buy' one out of a bad situation. I'd help one out, yes. But I do not feel that strongly 'attached' to my theriotype that I would 'need contact' with them. I'm perfectly content with viewing other wild animals, as well as spending time with my dogs.

The thing I do is donate money to sanctuaries and places that keep bears and other animals to educate the public and that watch over said creatures in a way that does not demean them as pets. National parks are also a good choice, seeing as all the animals in the park benefit, not just my theriotype. I personally find it selfish to pick and choose what animals you want to save and which ones you will turn a blind eye too.

South Munjoy
June 7th, 2009, 02:34 PM
Well, I technically 'own' a dog, and my housemate also has two more, so by legal definitions yeah, I already own a canine. However at the same time my dog, and the two others that I live with are family members that I live with and guide, not 'own'.

As far as 'owning' a wild canine like a wolf or coyote (I've been around both) the family relationship become both much more of a relationship of equals than ownership due to the fact that they are much smarter than dogs, and much more capable than dogs to make up and express their minds about the species that they choose to associate with. 'Ownership' is much more of a two way street with them that it is with dogs, and they are quite vocal and forceful in letting you know where you stand in relationship with them. They see humans as two legged hairless versions of themselves, and you need to know their language and their culture. If you don't know their language/culture, they will show you.-- For better or worse.

Look upon it as being the proverbial 'Stupid Yank Tourist' who knows nothing about the French language or Culture who goes to France on vacation. French people will have no issues about being rude and blunt with Yanks who know nothing about them or their culture when the tourists ruin the social etiquette. The Tourists come back from vacation with the belief that French people are arrogant, rude, and combative without realising that they bring the rudeness and arrogance upon themselves by not learning the culture.
--Same thing with Wolves and Coyotes, and unlike dogs, they have no problems showing their displeasure with others who won't or refuse to learn with their behavior and if the feel compelled, their teeth.

Would I 'own' a couple of either species? Perhaps, though not in the foreseeable future as I don't have the living space or rescources at hand to provide them with what they need to actually live happily.

When they are puppies and adolescents, wolves are just like dogs, though a bit more garrulous. Come adulthood, however, they make their own decisions as to whether or not you're a freind that they can live with, or an irritation that they have to endure. Coyotes are a somewhat differant, but not so much enough that you can't pick up on it. -- The relational dynamic is the same.

DragonicWolf
June 7th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I would hate owning a bear!!

I would never go out and adopt one, or 'buy' one out of a bad situation. I'd help one out, yes. But I do not feel that strongly 'attached' to my theriotype that I would 'need contact' with them. I'm perfectly content with viewing other wild animals, as well as spending time with my dogs.

The thing I do is donate money to sanctuaries and places that keep bears and other animals to educate the public and that watch over said creatures in a way that does not demean them as pets. National parks are also a good choice, seeing as all the animals in the park benefit, not just my theriotype. I personally find it selfish to pick and choose what animals you want to save and which ones you will turn a blind eye too.*Two thumbs up*
I agree with you entirely. People don't need to own or make a wild animal their 'companion' to be more spiritually attached to them. Unfortunately many people do, and that is one of the problems in the exotic pet trade.

And although i am part wolf therian, my heart goes to all endangered wildlife out there. I am not exactly sure what I will be doing after I get my zoology/conservation degree but it will not be focused on entirely one species.

Magoo-Tora
June 8th, 2009, 12:03 AM
*Two thumbs up*
I agree with you entirely. People don't need to own or make a wild animal their 'companion' to be more spiritually attached to them. Unfortunately many people do, and that is one of the problems in the exotic pet trade.

And although i am part wolf therian, my heart goes to all endangered wildlife out there. I am not exactly sure what I will be doing after I get my zoology/conservation degree but it will not be focused on entirely one species.

I'm glad some one can see the need for specie-equality

I just wish people would treat all animals need to be conserved as a whole instead of just putting one on a pedestal... it's what's happening with wolves.

EllieLuna
July 11th, 2009, 06:39 PM
I'm really torn here. Caracals ARE kept as exotic pets, and it's legal to have them. They're also said to domesticate very well. On the other hand, I know it's illogical to that I could keep a thirty pound cat. I know what my temperament is like, and I don't a me with killer claws and teeth. Still, there's a part of me that would love to live side by side with one of my own.

There are also caracal/abyssinian hybrids, and a part of would like one of them. They seem as though they would be easier to keep, and they're not wild animals. But, reading what you guys have said about wolf hybrids, I don't think I would do that either, it seems wrong.

I guess what I really want is to work with caracals in a cat sanctuary, where we could interact and be friends, but they could still be wild.

Oblivian
July 11th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Ellie: Hybrids are just that. One individual, two different species (of feline, in this case) that do not necessarily work the same way. It can lead to some negative sideeffects along with the positive effects. It's the same with all hybrids (in a way, we're hybrids too, just not physically. Take that as an example xD)
I'd very well consider a wolf hybrid, for as long as I can raise it.. just to be with my own.

Freedom of the soul
July 11th, 2009, 06:53 PM
It impossible to own a dragon but I already have a bat(raised from baby and it won't go away so it stays in the house in my room. I would love to own a wolf too though....So yes definitely!

Agita
July 11th, 2009, 06:57 PM
If I had a wolf in the house, it would not be 'owned'. Just another addition to the pack ^^

Claycat
July 11th, 2009, 08:05 PM
I would never keep a leopard in my home. But I do feel a need to share my home with my domestic cousins.

Josh Carter
July 11th, 2009, 08:31 PM
I don't think I would have a wolf in my house, though if I had the money I would have a wolf sanctuary on my property.

DragonicWolf
July 11th, 2009, 10:54 PM
If I had a wolf in the house, it would not be 'owned'. Just another addition to the pack ^^

As I have told many people who have said this as an excuse to keep a pet wolf, if it is bought by you, in your house under your rules, the wolf is indeed a pet/owned, whether it sounds appealing for the owner or the wolf or not.

My doggie is a member of the family too, but that does not make her any less dependent on me.

Kassidy
July 11th, 2009, 10:58 PM
My dogs are "another part of the pack" and family, friends, companions, whatever you want to call them. But they are DOMESTIC creatures. A wolf is NOT, nor is a wolfdog hybrid. They are not the same and are not meant to be. No matter how many nicey nice terms or words you choose to use, it doesn't change a thing. Some animals are meant to be in the wild... Even a wolfdog hybrid with anything more than a microscopic percentage of wolf, many, many generations removed is not going to make a good pet (many times they are lucky if they are even mentally stable and socially adjusted enough to not be in a state of nervousness or even paranoia the majority, or all, of the time).

I know people with wolfdogs and have worked with them myself (those who have established breeds as pets/conformation animals and those who work in rehabing them) and they are NOT pets. I really would encourage anyone considering a wolf or wolfdog as a pet to please go back and read through this whole thread, with my earlier, more extensive replies, along with those of several others (Draconicwolf has posted a lot on this as well). These are not animals that fit well into human society, as they tend to have behavioral problems galore and all sorts of quirks and issues people simply do not know how to handle.

I'm not even stating all of this as simple opinion... I'm stating it based on fact and years upon years of professional canine training, competing, judging, instructing, "real life" (Assistance Dog, Police K-9, and Search and Rescue K-9) work, behaviorist work, etc.

Heck, I'm a wolfdog therian myself and, even with that, I am severely opposed to the intentional breeding or keeping of wolfdogs and wolves as pets. Please people... let these wild animals remain wild.

wolffriend
July 12th, 2009, 12:28 AM
I just got a husky, so I have developments. She's 2 1/2 yrs old, and a sweetheart. Was well taken care of and I had to take her off of her previous owner because he decided he couldn't care for her anymore. It's a sad story really, but we do love her, and care for her a lot.

But anyways, as I have not owned a dog before, much less a husky, things are interesting. While I no doubt get along wonderfully with her, and can do the things to take care of her, one big thing that I had to learn was how to properly interact with her. There's a stark difference between being a proper caretaker rather than a playmate or peer. I have had to learn to be assertive and had to train my brain to respond to her prompts the proper way, not as a dog would respond, but as a human who is taking care of her would respond. It's quite an interesting thing to observe, how this is. My mother is coaching me along the way, which has been inordinately helpful. As I have said to her, she has to train me to be a good dog owner. :P

All things considered though, it's something absolutely special to be able to live with a husky, as a husky therian. :)

DaxterD
July 12th, 2009, 03:59 AM
Since I already work alongside my own theriotype/animal and I teach people the errors of hand-raising larger exotic animals as pets (especially if they are to be released again) I wouldn't want to look after a lion in my home area. However I'm willing to go the distance to see and help them... in 2 years I plan to travel to Africa to release some into the wild with a long-standing project that has a high survival rate for the lions.

Kassidy
July 12th, 2009, 01:00 PM
Wolffriend, congrats on the new addition to your family. I miss my Husky (Alaskan though, not Sibe)... there was never a dull moment with him around. :)

DaxterD, see... that is something I respect. :) Helping with rehab and wilderness re-introduction is one thing... keeping a wild, exotic animal as a pet, pack member, companion, etc. is totally different and, in my opinion, quite selfish.

wolffriend
July 12th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Wolffriend, congrats on the new addition to your family. I miss my Husky (Alaskan though, not Sibe)... there was never a dull moment with him around. :)
Thank you! She is an absolute dear, and she keeps shedding! :o I just got back in from brushing her, again. There is no end to it. ;) I love her though, and you're right, there's never a dull moment in the house with her here. :)

DaxterD
July 12th, 2009, 02:27 PM
DaxterD, see... that is something I respect. :) Helping with rehab and wilderness re-introduction is one thing... keeping a wild, exotic animal as a pet, pack member, companion, etc. is totally different and, in my opinion, quite selfish.

Thank you very much ^^ I can understand cases where exotic animals are kept as pets if the mother has to reject them or it has a severe disability for example, but having roamed free (as much as possible) myself I'm not sure otherwise. If they say they also do it for the animal I wouldn't call it entirely selfish.

Night
July 16th, 2009, 02:31 PM
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Freedom of the soul
July 16th, 2009, 02:56 PM
Well does a snake count as a wild and/or exotic pet? and do wolves in my backyard count as pets? They come along the fence to my house(we live in a wooded area) but they never jump over. I went by the fence and watched them. I went over to the fence(stupid I know) and one of the wolves(female)laid down beside me and roll over, the other's following her example. Is it me or is that just weird?

Amourosa Wolfsight
July 16th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Honestly, though a part of me would love to have a wolf in the house, I know that it wouldn't be right for the creature to be cooped up. DragonicWolf and Kassidy are right; hybrids wouldn't be the way to go either.


The problem is these creatures already exist. There are "domesticated" wolves who are wolves that live with humans and they would be almost impossible to release into the wild. The same goes for wolf-dogs. We can't regulate everything so they are going to breed and make more wolf-dogs and such. It doesn't matter so much where the animal lives as long as it's happy, in my opinion. If I can provide a home to a wolf or a wolf-dog where they will lead good, happy lives than I would consider that better than trying to introduce them to a strange pack in a rehab facility or releasing them into the wild. In the rehabilitation facility, their behavior as human-raised wolves living outside the normal pack structure could be detrimental to their placement in the pack. In the wild, they wouldn't even know how to survive.

So, wherever the animal would be safest and happiest is, in my opinion, the best place for that animal to be, even if it is among humans as a pet.

Night
July 18th, 2009, 02:04 PM
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Midnight Wanderer
July 18th, 2009, 09:18 PM
I plan on someday moving a more wolf-populated area, so I could socialize with them, albeit at a distance. I'd hate myself too much to deprive another wolf from being free to run and hunt, though I would be all for working with something like a rehabilitation program to get them back in the wild.


I went over to the fence(stupid I know) and one of the wolves(female)laid down beside me and roll over, the other's following her example. Is it me or is that just weird?

Stupid, yes... but OMG amazing.

DragonicWolf
July 18th, 2009, 10:15 PM
So, wherever the animal would be safest and happiest is, in my opinion, the best place for that animal to be, even if it is among humans as a pet.

But how do you know that wolves will be happy around humans as a pet compared to them living in the wild?

The wild, and nature is supposed to be a brutal thing with no mercy. That is how wild animals have lived for millions and millions of years, in the wild fighting for survival. The thing is if people try to interfere with nature, it will cause some problems. Even if a wildlife photographer sees a bird fall out of its nest in the wild, they will leave it be (most of the time they do), not because they do not care, but because they do not want to interfere with nature. Same goes for flowers, you don't see plant lovers putting their finger in pollen and then bringing it to another flowers stigma.

Many people forget that earth and mother nature can be very brutal, and it is supposed to be. Mainly because most of us humans live in comfort most of the time, too sheltered.

Kassidy
July 20th, 2009, 05:33 PM
Freedom of the Soul, where do you live that you have wolves parading along your fence line? And are you certain that these are wolves and not coyotes or stray (or just loose to wander) dogs? Also, I would love to see some pics of these animals, if you wouldn't mind posting them. :) I can imagine it wouldn't be hard to snap a few if they so frequently visit and are as docile as you describe in your presence.


The problem is these creatures already exist. There are "domesticated" wolves who are wolves that live with humans and they would be almost impossible to release into the wild.

Yes, they obviously already exist... but that certainly does NOT mean we should be keeping them as pets or encouraging or allowing them to continue to be bred for that purpose (or any other). There are regulations and laws in place to help prevent this in many areas as well. On top of that, as has many times already been stated, "domesticated" or not, the VAST majority of humans and homes are not prepared nor capable of fully or properly caring for and handling a wolf or wolfdog. Furthermore, they are not going to "just keep breeding" if humans do the responsible thing and spay/neuter those who already exist due to other humans having bred them. While some wolfdogs have occurred naturally, it is a very rare thing. Wolfdogs do not, in this day and age, end up in households as the result of an accidental or non-purposeful breeding.

I have no issue with helping those already here... but I am very opposed to purposefully creating more... especially given the drastically selfish reasons people often have for doing so.

RowanWulfram
July 20th, 2009, 11:30 PM
Of course I would love to be in close-contact with wolves; but because I know in fraction the freedom of their spirit and the sheer wildness of their nature; I don't think I would have the heart to keep one in captivity. Work closely with them at a rescue, sanctuary, or live in the areas where they live? Absolutely. But I would feel guilty attempting to 'own' one.

Now, wolf hybrids I have considered. I have read, researched, ordered books, and done the best I can to get the full picture of what I would be dealing with and what conditions I would have to live in to provide for one. Obviously I'm going to try to get in there in close contact with a few before I make any decisions. I also have a few years to think about it, since I'm going off to college and dorms won't allow any pet but a fish. ^^; If I do decide to get one; I think low to mid-content is obviously the only way to go to have one as a 'pet', high-content hybrids are basically wolves, and should probably go to high maintenance care or a sanctuary.

If not, I will at least get a dog breed that is closely related to the wolf, such as huskies, malamutes, or czech wolfdogs (this is an actual breed, not a hybrid).

DragonicWolf
July 21st, 2009, 05:55 AM
Now, wolf hybrids I have considered. I have read, researched, ordered books, and done the best I can to get the full picture of what I would be dealing with and what conditions I would have to live in to provide for one. Obviously I'm going to try to get in there in close contact with a few before I make any decisions. I also have a few years to think about it, since I'm going off to college and dorms won't allow any pet but a fish. ^^; If I do decide to get one; I think low to mid-content is obviously the only way to go to have one as a 'pet', high-content hybrids are basically wolves, and should probably go to high maintenance care or a sanctuary.


You also need to consider the breeding behind the wolfdogs and the fact that wolfdogs are often not mentally stable, the poor things. As I have said many times in this thread, by getting a wolfdog , you are encouraging the trade, and not many wolfdogs make it to a good home and end up getting dumped or even euthanized.

Get a Husky or a Malamute if you really want the wolfish look. Actually I think huskies are no much closer to the wolf than any other dog, they just have the look.

Amourosa Wolfsight
July 21st, 2009, 02:29 PM
But how do you know that wolves will be happy around humans as a pet compared to them living in the wild?

The wild, and nature is supposed to be a brutal thing with no mercy. That is how wild animals have lived for millions and millions of years, in the wild fighting for survival. The thing is if people try to interfere with nature, it will cause some problems. Even if a wildlife photographer sees a bird fall out of its nest in the wild, they will leave it be (most of the time they do), not because they do not care, but because they do not want to interfere with nature. Same goes for flowers, you don't see plant lovers putting their finger in pollen and then bringing it to another flowers stigma.

Many people forget that earth and mother nature can be very brutal, and it is supposed to be. Mainly because most of us humans live in comfort most of the time, too sheltered.

I didn't say that every wolf or wolfdog in the situation we're talking about should be owned or kept captive.

Actually, there are several groups supporting an international ban on wolfdog breeding and trading, so hopefully they will have some progress.

Also, most of the wolfdogs currently in existence should be pets because they decrease the wolf population in the wild and, when captured by recovery or research groups, they tend to be euthanized. Hmm. Pet or dead?

I don't think wolves should be pets and I think most people don't know what they're in for when they have a wolf as a pet. I would love to have wolf numbers back to what they should be, but humans often make their environment unsafe. If a wolf is released into the wild in an unstable territory with lots of hunting, or a large pack, or a pack unwilling to take on a newcomer, etc. then it's not really fair to that animal to have brought it into this world just to starve or get shot or chewed to death. The thing about nature is it's natural, and wolves born and raised in captivity are almost never properly equipped to be released.

Sanctuaries and recovery centers are the only exceptions to these but they are often at capacity.

What did you mean when you said wolfdogs were mentally unstable? Are they sick? Wolfdog behavior is not predictable overall, or compared to the parents' behavior, although an individual wolfdog can be. Most tend to be more aggressive and wolf-like, although there are many who are much gentler and easier to handle. I wouldn't consider this mentally unstable.

EDIT: One more thing. If I were to get a wolfdog from a shelter or a wolfdog center that was trying to end the trading but find loving homes for the ones here now (going back to that whole decreases-wolf-population-getting-euthanized thing) I would not be encouraging the trading. In fact, I would probably make a donation to the cause itself, as well. Not all acquirements of wolfdogs encourage the trade.

Kassidy
July 21st, 2009, 08:02 PM
I love how no one (or at least, not beyond those who expressed an interest in rehab or sanctuary work) has mentioned *where* they plan on getting these wolves or wolfdogs they want as pets. As Draconicwolf stated, by getting a wolf or wolfdog, you are supporting the trade (and the continued purposeful breeding of wolves and wolfdogs for this purpose). If you can become involved in wolf or wolfdog rehab work, that is great... but that is also a FAR cry from keeping one as your own personal pet.

What I believe Draconicwolf is referring to by "mentally unstable" is basically just that... some are very unstable and have a slew of mental issues due to the poor breeding practices used in creating them. Have any of you actually looked closely at or into the "breeders" of wolves and wolfdogs for pet purposes? How many are titled or certified in anything? How many have health certs or clearances of any kind or on any level? How many are registered with any umbrella org? These (and a ton more) are all things that RESPONSIBLE canine breeders make a point of doing... and these people, I guarantee you, are not. That is just one of the ways they end up with mental and temperamental issues, beyond the "difficult to handle or train" or other less serious or environmentally influenced issues that can develop.

Book reading and researching is great... but you really need to do so much more in order to really know what you would be getting into by working with/amongst wolves and/or wolfdogs. Have you attended seminars on this topic? If so, who hosted them? Have you attended, worked or volunteered at shelters or sanctuaries? Which ones? How often and for how long? Have you trained/worked with other canines (dogs)? How often, in what venue, and to what level(s)? And so on and so forth.

Furthermore, there isn't really so much of a need for personal/private homes for "rescued" wolves or wolfdogs as one might think. If it is appropriate for an individual wolf or wolfdog, however, there are individuals who remain regular contacts of shelters/sanctuaries for this purpose. I know two personally (one is a musher, another a SAR K9 handler), and another is a close acquaintance. They would not be kept in the regular canine colony/population, nor would they be considered for adoption out to the general human public.

As for Czech Wolfdogs, yes, they are now a breed with limited recognition by a handful of orgs/registries (as are a few other wolfdog hybrid combinations), but they are still a wolfdog hybrid. Sorry, but there is still a high percentage of wolf there and the breed founders failed horribly in their original goals with this wolfdog breed (this is a widely known and accepted fact amongst those in the dog world, even amongst founders and breed owners themselves), as did the founders of other wolfdog breeds (the Saarloos, for example).

Huskies (of any specific type/breed), Malamutes, Samoyeds, etc. are no more wolf and no more closely related to wolves than a Basset Hound or Cocker Spaniel. They have the look and a higher maintenance attitude/personality at times, but they are not more closely related to wolves than any other established breed (besides the more recently created wolfdog breeds already mentioned above). This is something that has been established through scientific/genetic testing.

Amourosa Wolfsight
July 22nd, 2009, 02:13 AM
I'm not sure what we're arguing about/discussing anymore.

ShadowFox
July 22nd, 2009, 03:20 AM
I'm actually in the process of finding a good seller of hybrid pups, so yes, i would definitely do so.

DragonicWolf
July 22nd, 2009, 04:32 AM
I'm actually in the process of finding a good seller of hybrid pups, so yes, i would definitely do so.

I will be very grateful if you would read through some of Kassidy's and my posts.

ShadowFox
July 22nd, 2009, 04:59 AM
I think that if someone were to own a hybrid it should be a therian though. Someone who DOES understand and would make a great home for the animal. Looking at the bigger picture, they are going to be bought and sold either way, might as well give one a home with someone who cares.

DragonicWolf
July 22nd, 2009, 05:55 AM
I think that if someone were to own a hybrid it should be a therian though. Someone who DOES understand and would make a great home for the animal. Looking at the bigger picture, they are going to be bought and sold either way, might as well give one a home with someone who cares.


Just because someone is a 'therian' , it does not make them more 'knowledgeable' or 'better' than others when it comes to owning a pet that is of their theriotype. It is not an excuse.

You need to look at the even bigger picture here. There are many cases of people buying exotic animals, even illegal ones, out of pity for they think that they can provide a better home for it than anyone else. But by doing this you are STILL encouraging the trade. By 'saving' the life of one hybrid, you are risking the life of many many more to come.

Many people in fact, who want to buy wolves or wolfdogs as pets, happen to give the excuse that " Oh, I am spiritually connected to wolves and therefore I want to keep one for myself , so I can be closer to wolves as whole.". It is mostly THESE PEOPLE who end up getting themselves, and their pets into trouble. And even if they really did enough research and had enough experience, they encouraged the exotic pet trade anyway.

ShadowFox
July 22nd, 2009, 06:26 AM
You seem to be pretty locked in your convictions and ideas and just disagree with anyone who says otherwise so i dont think i will continue an arguement.

Yenot
July 22nd, 2009, 03:29 PM
I swear I replied to this, but it looks like I was wrong.

No no no, I would not own a raccoon. Have you heard about people owning raccoons? They are ANNOYING. Adorable, but you basically only own one if you WANT your stuff destroyed/eaten.

...But no, really, I thought I answered this already.

Triox
July 22nd, 2009, 10:08 PM
I read through quite a bit of this discussion, and I agree with Dragonic's views on exotic pet trading. Yet, my initial reasoning for not wanting to own a cougar is a lot more simple...

A cougar doesn't want to bond with me. They're solitary creatures, and I show that aspect in my personality as well. All in all, I don't think either party would be too happy.

ShadowFox
July 22nd, 2009, 10:41 PM
And i think it maaaaay concern the neighbors. lol

DragonicWolf
July 23rd, 2009, 04:26 AM
You seem to be pretty locked in your convictions and ideas and just disagree with anyone who says otherwise so i dont think i will continue an arguement.

I disagree for reasons, reasons concerning animal rights in this world. The things I say are mostly fact, and not simply opinion. I am not stopping you, but I highly , highly discourage you from getting a wolfdog as a pet.

I have many points to justify this, but then again you probably will not want to listen due to the fact you have your mind set on buying a wolfdog, and your mind set on "since I am a therian I am eligible to keep a wild animal because I understand them more than anyone else".

ShadowFox
July 23rd, 2009, 04:38 AM
Thats not what i said. What i meant was that the dogs are going to be bred. The puppies are going to be sold. If one is going to be sold, i would think that someone who cares for the dog would be a better home than someone who does not. Do you agree? I'm not trying to argue your point, just that its rather pointless to argue. If anything were to be done about that sort of thing, there would be no killing of endangered animals for fur and whatnot. People wouldnt buy exotic pets all over the world just to tire of them and have to get rid of them. People wouldnt hunt for sharks using dogs and cats for bait. They wouldnt skin wolves alive just for the fun of it. The world is the way the world is. No one can help what these humans do, or it wouldve been done by now. So all i'm saying is its okay to buy the dog cuz its going to get bought anyway.

DragonicWolf
July 23rd, 2009, 04:49 AM
Thats not what i said. What i meant was that the dogs are going to be bred. The puppies are going to be sold. If one is going to be sold, i would think that someone who cares for the dog would be a better home that someone who does not. Do you agree? I'm not trying to argue your point, just that its rather pointless to argue. If anything were to be done about that sort of thing, there would be no killing of endangered animals for fur and whatnot. People wouldnt buy exotic pets all over the world just to tire of them and have to get rid of them. The world is the way the world is. No one can help what these humans do, or it wouldve been done by now. So all i'm saying is its okay to buy the dog cuz its going to get bought anyway.


Yeah... I know that there is nothing much that can be done about the things I disagree with in the world, and one of those is the keeping of wolves, or breeding of wolfdogs specifically as pets ,for whatever reason people have. But my mindset is that every small thing matters, no matter how small my attempts may be at doing what I feel is right , at least it is something.

As I said before, most of the time people buy exotic animals out of pity, or simply because, as you said


So all i'm saying is its okay to buy the dog cuz its going to get bought anyway.

Yes, the dog is going to be bought anyway. Tiger cubs in the black market are going to be bought anyway.Sharks fin in the chinese shops here is going to be bought anyway.

But remember, even the smallest things that may seem like it means nothing to how it will be affected overall matters. When I go to a chinese wedding here and they serve sharks fin or any other delicacy i disagree with, I will not eat, and I will discourage my friends and family not to either. Then again, people tell me that " Oh come on, its only a bowl of soup. More sharks are going to be killed brutally anyway no matter whether you drink that bowl of soup or not." I dont listen to them. If i feel strongly about something I will do whatever it takes.

Anyway, as I said before, I aint stopping you. Aint nothing I can do, i simply disagree with buying wolves and/or wolfdogs. If you do get a wolfdog, make sure you do your homework first and make sure you can provide it with a good home. And remember, just because someone is a therian it does not mean that they can handle everything.

As a side note, whats wrong with a Husky or Malamute? They make much better pets, and you two will enjoy each others company much more than if you decided to get a more exotic, difficult to care for, wolfdog.

ShadowFox
July 23rd, 2009, 05:12 AM
I just dont find owning a wolf hybrid as bad as any of those things. But i may change my mind, it isnt set in stone either way. I just know that sometimes its not always as bad as people make it out to be. Not all wolf hybrids are crazy, not all pitbulls are vicious, not all normal dogs are nice. Its just chance. And please dont misunderstand what i said and think that i mean that therians are magically capible of handling animals. I didnt say that at all. I said that therians would understand the needs of an animal more than an unempathetic human.

DragonicWolf
July 23rd, 2009, 05:43 AM
I just dont find owning a wolf hybrid as bad as any of those things.

It does not sound bad, but think about all the wolfdogs that are going to be bred, most of them will be sent to bad homes and get euthanized. It is not bad for us or wolfdogs with good homes, but it is bad for the other wolfdog lives out there and the fact that so many of them are going to live miserable lives. The problem with me is that even if other lives are 'none of my business' , i still feel empathy.


And please dont misunderstand what i said and think that i mean that therians are magically capible of handling animals. I didnt say that at all. I said that therians would understand the needs of an animal more than an unempathetic human.

I apologize then. But just to note, there are plenty of people out there who understand the needs and emotions of animals more than people who call themselves therians as well.

Oblivian
July 23rd, 2009, 06:32 AM
My friend (possible rat-therian) told me about her relative who had a female dog who once went missing for a couple days, came back home pregnant and eventually gave birth to wolfdog pups. Lucky wolf who got the chance to score. However, the pups had a terrible mindset.. I can only assume that they were put down, but she didn't tell me.

DragonicWolf
July 23rd, 2009, 07:50 AM
My friend (possible rat-therian) told me about her relative who had a female dog who once went missing for a couple days, came back home pregnant and eventually gave birth to wolfdog pups. Lucky wolf who got the chance to score. However, the pups had a terrible mindset.. I can only assume that they were put down, but she didn't tell me.

Wolfdogs in the wild are very dangerous, and are very likely to get rabies @@. Luckily her relatives dog came back, but then again, the poor pups that might have been put down.

Kassidy
July 23rd, 2009, 04:23 PM
I wouldn't say a wolfdog is any more likely to get rabies than any other animal, wild or otherwise.

But anyway...

Shadowfox, if you'll read my last post in this topic, you'll notice that I briefly note that the BREEDERS of wolves and wolfdogs are exactly where the problem starts. These are not responsible people. They do not do any health testing or certifications on their breeding stock, do not register with any supporting or umbrella org, do not train, title, or certify in any area, and are not experienced canine handlers, trainers, etc. They do not have any significant amount of schooling or experience in the canine world. They are in the breeding business for two reasons... 1. they think wolves and wolfdogs are "cool" in one way or another. and, 2. they want to make a quick buck. Responsible canine breeders do all of the above mentioned things and more... I can guarantee you that it will be an immense challenge (and likely impossible) to find ANY wolf or wolfdog breeders who do even one of the above mentioned things to help ensure the mental and physical health and happiness of the animals they have chosen to breed and sell.

The fact that it's "going to happen anyway" is both untrue and unimportant. Continuing to support this industry (which is illegal in some areas) does ensure that it will continue... because of simple supply and demand. Continuing to speak out against it, though, educate others regarding the lack of forethought and care that goes into the breeding and sale of these animals, and refusing to purchase animals from these people DOES make a difference. Saying "oh well, it's going to happen anyway" is a cop-out. I apologize, as I do not mean to be rude in saying that... but it is the truth. The same can be said about lots of things... "Oh well, people are going to keep littering anyway... so I'll just toss this food wrapper out the car window" etc. I'm sure you can see my point. Indifference begets further indifference. :)

I could not disagree more than a therian would make any better a caregiver for a non-human animal than a non-therian. I know some therians who are not very experienced or knowledgeable with many species, and a whole TON of non-therians who would be the first people I would call to help out or give a home to an animal in need.

There are a lot of factual based reasons that I choose to not support nor condone the intentional breeding and sale of wolves and wolfdogs for pets... this is not an opinion only based stance. I have several years as a professional trainer, handler, competitor, judge, and instructor (along with the years of schooling and seminar attendance that goes along with that) to support my views and provide the first-hand witnessed evidence of the things I have stated in this thread.

For those who wish to have a close connection with and interact on a more personal level with wolves or wolfdogs, I encourage you to look into rescue/rehab work at the various sanctuaries out there. Purchasing a wolf or wolfdog from a sub-par "breeder" is really not the way to go.

*Wanders off to comment in Yenot's spin-off thread.*

ShadowFox
July 23rd, 2009, 09:32 PM
Am I just the only person that said yes in this thread or something? *looks for bulls-eye on back* I can have my own opinion on this matter. Maybe some of you dont understand how common it is down here for a wolf or a coyote to impregnant a persons dog. Just living out in the country this is going to happen. The puppies are going to be sold or put down. Thats not to say that i would buy from a breeder that isnt reputable and qualified, i just mean that the ownership of wolf hybrids is pretty common here.

But as i said, me buying a pup is not set in stone. I may change my mind for any number of reasons and decide on a Husky instead. So please just drop it.

wolffriend
July 23rd, 2009, 10:07 PM
Am I just the only person that said yes in this thread or something?
I did say that I have a dog. ;)

ShadowFox
July 23rd, 2009, 10:08 PM
It was more of a retorical remark in that i seem to be singled out in the debate....which seems to happen to me alot. lol Things i say are often misunderstood, taken too literally, or some other horrible thing that starts arguements.

Cyaeris
July 23rd, 2009, 11:30 PM
I agree whole-heartedly with Kassidy. I have a friend out in the country who is successfully and responsibly breeding wolfdogs, and they all have lovely temperaments and are loyal friends. She hasn't said how long her family has been specifically breeding wolfdogs for, but they've been canine handlers/trainers/breeders for decades.

My only advice for those wanting to purchase a wolfdog is do your research! Always examine the animals carefully and only buy from someone who is positively reputable.

I've met two wolfdogs in my lifetime - both were amazingly affectionate and friendly. So yeah. Agreeing with Kassidy here.

Kassidy
July 24th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Lol... that doesn't sound like it really agrees with my comments, but okay. :) Just out of curiosity, does your friend have a website? I'd be interested in seeing what health certs, TTs, titles, org registration, etc. they have for the animals in their care. I'm not trying to be judgmental or anything, but I have yet to see any wolfdog breeder who does or has these sort of things in place. Does your friend breed and keep actual wolves/wolfdogs? Or do they breed one of the established/recognized wolf-dog cross derived breeds?

ShadowFox, no one is singling you out and you were not the only one to reply and say "yes, I would" or "yes, I might" to this question. It's only that you are currently the only one recently posting in this thread with that opinion or considering that option... thus, it may seem that you are being "singled out." But please do understand that is not the case, nor my (or I doubt anyone else's) intent. If you read further back in this thread, as I suggested doing earlier, you will see a wider variety of responses. Furthermore, I do not consider this an argument, but rather a debate (which is why I haven't just said "no, that's bad, you shouldn't do that", but have given factual and experience based examples and information to support my stance on this topic).

You are free to disagree with me or anyone else here, as that is your right. However, as I have already noted, I could not disagree with you (and the others who have posted the same or similar statements) more that supporting the breeding of wolfdogs is a good idea for anyone involved, for reasons already cited.

It's really not that common for a wolfdog cross to occur naturally in any part of the US. Breeders of wolfdogs might tell you that in order to help justify their breeding practices, but it's simply not true. It happened sporadically years and years ago but, even then, it was pretty rare. Especially back then, wolves were more likely to lure dogs out into the woods to kill and eat them then to mate with them. Nowadays, most wolf packs fear dogs, especially due to Karlian Bear Dog programs now in place, etc.

Ryanne
July 26th, 2009, 12:51 AM
I have thought of owning a wolf before. And even though I love tigers and wouldn't hesitate to get one if money and legal issues weren't a problem,but I wouldn't own a wolf. There's something about wolves, it's like a person owning another person. Not as like a slave or anything but as a companion. I wouldn't feel...right owing a wolf. I see them as my only true equal and equals don't own other equals.

EllieLuna
July 29th, 2009, 03:51 PM
Just because everyone keeps talking about canines... Does anyone have any information about exotic cat hybrids? While I don't think I could bring myself to own a caracal, part of me WOULD consider getting a caracal hybrid.

DragonicWolf
July 30th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Wanted to post this here for the heck of it. Alaskan Malamutes are beautiful dogs, and they look very much like wolves. Another reason why there is no need to get a wolf hybrid for the look.

http://mrsdollaway-stock.deviantart.com/art/2009-June-001-127086782


Just because everyone keeps talking about canines... Does anyone have any information about exotic cat hybrids? While I don't think I could bring myself to own a caracal, part of me WOULD consider getting a caracal hybrid.

I am not really sure about exotic cat hybrids, but I assume that it is a similar case with the wolf hybrids, depending on the kind of wild cat. I am against all exotic/domestic hybrids because of the... morality behind it?

DragonicWolf
July 30th, 2009, 09:00 AM
Wanted to post this here for the heck of it. Alaskan Malamutes are beautiful dogs, and they look very much like wolves. Another reason why there is no need to get a wolf hybrid for the look.

http://mrsdollaway-stock.deviantart.com/art/2009-June-001-127086782


Just because everyone keeps talking about canines... Does anyone have any information about exotic cat hybrids? While I don't think I could bring myself to own a caracal, part of me WOULD consider getting a caracal hybrid.

I am not really sure about exotic cat hybrids, but I assume that it is a similar case with the wolf hybrids, depending on the kind of wild cat. I am against all exotic/domestic hybrids because of the... morality behind it?

Looked it up a bit:


According to some accounts, they may have more of a "big cat" attitude because of their natural adaptation to hunting larger prey than many small felines. This translates into a certain boldness. The higher confidence level may be reflected in a more relaxed, less fearful, and more social cat. It may also be reflected in a pushier attitude that can be threatening to inexperienced owners, and some accounts say they are faster, smarter, and more active than comparable species.

According to what I have read from other caracal owners on the net, they are wild animals and can be an extreme handful.

Amourosa Wolfsight
July 30th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Wanted to post this here for the heck of it. Alaskan Malamutes are beautiful dogs, and they look very much like wolves. Another reason why there is no need to get a wolf hybrid for the look.

http://mrsdollaway-stock.deviantart.com/art/2009-June-001-127086782




Ah, I love Malamutes and would love to have on as an addition to the family someday.

EllieLuna
July 30th, 2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the info, Dragonic. I get what you're saying about hybrids, that's why I'm still on the fence about it. As for the Malamutes, they're beautiful, but HOLY COW is that a big dog!

Kassidy
August 4th, 2009, 05:44 PM
Not all Mals are that large. There is actually a HUGE amount of size variety in the breed. I've seen them range from 70-130 lbs. Normal range is 75-85 lbs.

ShadowFox
August 6th, 2009, 05:00 AM
I think i have decided on a Mal. I saw one on TV that was beautiful. I still stand by my opinions though, i just dont think i could properly accomidate a wolf hybrid. They need so much special care that i wouldnt want to deprive it of in any way. Just dont have the money.

GestaltZe
August 6th, 2009, 05:41 AM
Just because everyone keeps talking about canines... Does anyone have any information about exotic cat hybrids? While I don't think I could bring myself to own a caracal, part of me WOULD consider getting a caracal hybrid.

I actually have a book about that. It's pretty old, and I'm not sure what 'the law' thinks about the matter, but nonetheless.
http://www.amazon.com/Ocelot-Your-Home-Selection-Training/dp/B0006C2FPK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249551571&sr=1-2
I think that's the one. It's really quite an awful book though. I wouldn't take any of it seriously.

Somnia
August 13th, 2013, 06:10 AM
If I had unlimited income, I would definitely love to study a pack of captive wolves, similar to what Jim and Jamie Dutcher have done with their wolf pack. I'd want to afford several acres of securely fenced property, so they would stay protected from other humans, but still have lots and lots of land to roam while I'd study them. Also similar to what Jim and Jamie did, I'd definitely want to build a small house raised up off the ground and actually live in the enclosure with the wolves. I would never want to "own" a wolf, or wolf pack and try to keep them as a pet, but I'd like to have the means to raise them and be able to interact with them in their fenced in territory and hopefully be recognized as one their members of the wolf family unit.

I also Cameo-shift into a domestic house cat, and I've often dreamed of owning several acres of property to rescue cats (have them spayed and neutered of course) and give them a safe place to live.

Until then, I'm quite happy taking care of the 1 indoor kitty I currently have, as well as random strays that find their way to our house :P. I'd definitely love to interact with a real wolf one day. I've seen them at zoos and wolf sanctuaries when I lived in WA state, but I've never really been close to one with no bars between us.

Zoochotic
August 13th, 2013, 07:39 AM
[Removed post]

KaraWolfDragon
August 14th, 2013, 02:10 PM
With my wolf side, I would love to take care of a wolf pack, but I would rather call them my friends than my pets. With my dog side, it's the same, except I would take care of them more and consider them like my children or something since of course wolves are not domestic. With dragon, obviously there's none of those around :P

hotdogwolf
August 14th, 2013, 02:11 PM
Assuming you had the capabilities and resources for your theriotype to live a fulfilling life; and that money and legalities were not an issue: Would you own a member of your theriotype's species?

I ask this because a lot of members here have theriotypes that would be considered exotic pets; would be illegal or unobtainable; and yet may still desire personal contact with their theriotypes despite the associated immpossibilities.

I'm curious to know what a lot of you have to say. Do you think it's alright to own exotic pets if they're properly attended to? Or do you fear treating wild animals as mere commodities? Are there certain conditions you want met before you'd think of own your theriotype? Do you feel you aren't capable of dealing with the more dangerous theriotypes.

Domestics are free to add their input here: How does 'owning' your fellow brethren feel to you? How desperate are you to have intimate contact with your therioside?

(I'll add my opinion once I see what others have to say here....)
No. I would never want to own a wolf or keep one as a pet because wolves are wild animals and should be kept as so, But living with wild wolves out in the wild, Then Yes. I would.

Searchingforfreedom
August 15th, 2013, 06:15 PM
Same as hotdogwolf, I'd rather live with a wolf pack in the wild instead. I can barely stand having to live so far away from large stretches of woodland where I can hunt, run and just live. I wouldn't be able to force another wolf to go through that too, it would feel too cruel and unfair when they could be in the wild.

Vaksa
August 15th, 2013, 11:57 PM
I would love to live with one, yes; very much so! However, I would prefer not to think of the resulting relationship as "owning" the animal. I'd think of it as more of a companionship or roommate situation, honestly. Besides that, my theriotype could not in any way be considered domesticated, and therefore could never be owned by anyone or anything.

As far as MEETING my theriotype, I've had the fortune to at least see one in person, at the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha, Nebraska. His name is Usurri, and for one brief moment, we made eye contact and it was an absolutely incredible feeling. I believe Usurri has since been relocated to the Franklin Park Zoo in Boston, because he didn't react well to meeting a potential mate and the zoo at Omaha was hoping to successfully breed Amur Leopards.

In any case, I would love to meet/see another. Though I know it will most likely never happen, I wish I could have some more interaction with them as well. Perhaps in the future I will have the chance to work at a zoo or something. :3

hotdogwolf
August 16th, 2013, 01:05 PM
I would think that we all would love to live with our theriotypes but I don't think or encourage to go out and buy a wild animal from some illegal seller. From what I have seen of the animal planet show Fatal attraction. Is that keeping a wild animal as a pet has never worked out for the owner or the animal it's self. Most often then not. It is the animal that gets the worse of it. If there are therians like myself who would and want to spend time around there theriotypes then the best way to do that is to get a job at a zoo or a pet store and to leave the wild animals where they are. Out in the wild and not in your home.

Yoraeryu
August 16th, 2013, 02:58 PM
As much as people like to think that captive-bred and raised big cats, etc, are tame and know you... They still get eaten.

As much as therians would like to believe they've made a special connection with these animals, the truth is that they're still wild, no matter what you do. Maybe the animal will recognize you as one of its own... But it'll still eat you. It can very well see you as competition.

Would I live with wolves? If I WAS one, you betcha. I've seen people that own wolves or wolf hybrids. These animals need tons of space and they will STILL destroy your entire house if they are let inside.

Please, give me dogs. They're close enough. I'm so sick of living with just cats... No offense to you felines. I'm just lonely.

Fruit of the Moon
August 16th, 2013, 08:01 PM
Might be cool. I think they'd be better off in a breeding program, though, given my subspecies is nearly extinct.

I think I'd rather have a Gryphon. Those guys are badass. Raise it from an egg, work with it and train to fly together and then go all out How to Train Your Dragon style.

Ashen
August 16th, 2013, 09:50 PM
I would think that we all would love to live with our theriotypes but I don't think or encourage to go out and buy a wild animal from some illegal seller. From what I have seen of the animal planet show Fatal attraction. Is that keeping a wild animal as a pet has never worked out for the owner or the animal it's self. Most often then not. It is the animal that gets the worse of it. If there are therians like myself who would and want to spend time around there theriotypes then the best way to do that is to get a job at a zoo or a pet store and to leave the wild animals where they are. Out in the wild and not in your home.


Slight rant here... Animal Planet is complete bull with that show.. I mean I think those stories are based off stuff that happened but it really just depends on if the owner has the funds to PROPERLY care for the exotics.. these animals are in captivity.. and they need good homes -- But I'm of the mindset than if you get the proper licenses (and you should have to be licensed), and pass inpections (and inspection minimum standards should be raised), and you know what your doing.. more power to you.. there is such a surplus of animals that need homes or they're going to be put down... this group pushes for Responsible Exotic Ownership, http://www.rexano.org/ some of these people basically have private zoos, others are Sanctuaries that aren't open to the public or are 'members only', others are open to the public but aren't in the same category as AZA zoos -- places like Valley of the Kings in Wisconsin or Tiger Creek in Tyler TX, are considered private ownership under certain laws, and these places have saved so many cats, and other animals from some of those horrible conditions, and given them a longer life in a lot better, and loving conditions. (nothing like hearing a Puma start purring for nightly pets..) (I interned at a big cat sanctuary)

Also the numbers of animals dying by poor care, neglect or people just realizing they can't handle the animal are much higher than animals eating people. ..I'll have to find the link I can't remember if it's from APHIS or AZA but there is a list of every known exotic animal attack in captivity from 1990-2000 is available to the public.. cases are interesting to read.. but compared to other statistics, the numbers for animal attacks in captivity aren't that huge, or at least not nearly as high as animal planet would have us believe.

Vulpatigris
August 16th, 2013, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't own a Siberian tiger, no way. Mainly because they need their space (like, hundreds of square miles we're talking about here) and I could never keep it away from the wild. As the saying goes, a caged tiger is an unhappy tiger. And that's something that is very true, as I've found out. Plus, it'll probably eat me :P

I would own a silver fox, not the wild variety, but the domesticated ones bred in Russia. They are fully domesticated, and were part of a project looking into the evolution of dogs from wolves. So yeah, I would get one of them except they're $6000 per kit. So maybe not.

In all honesty, I'd be happy with a couple of cats and maybe a python. A small one, like a Carpet or Children's python :)

Yoraeryu
August 17th, 2013, 04:25 AM
Ashen- I'm sure the ratios of neglected animals to eaten people are very different. I still think a wild animal would eat you if they really wanted to. Heck, a domestic cat could suffocate you in your sleep and then eat you. Never trust cats while you're sleeping! ;P

Vulpatigris- Are they called Children's Pythons because they eat children? Haha :P

Fruit of the Moon
August 17th, 2013, 05:16 PM
Vulpatigris- Are they called Children's Pythons because they eat children? Haha :P

That reminds me. You're mostly in Canada, right? Did you hear the recent national news about the python that accidentally fell out of the ceiling on two children, killing them both?

Ashen:
Have to agree with you there. I find that if under proper care a lot of 'wild' animals live much happier and longer fulfilling lives in captivity. It seems especially true for herbivores who no longer have to suffer from the immense amount of stress that comes from living out in the wild.

Natsilani
August 18th, 2013, 05:26 AM
Wow a zombie thread. Cool.

I would rather live in the wild with my type, as a member of my type's species. If thats not an option, which it isnt, I would rather live with them in the wild as a human.

However, if the opportunity ever presented itself, I would love to have a wolf for a "pet". Chances are I wouldn't see the relationship that way even though the law would.

Vulpatigris
August 18th, 2013, 06:21 AM
Vulpatigris- Are they called Children's Pythons because they eat children? Haha :P


Children's pythons are named after the zoologist who discovered them, who was called John George Children, so no, no children snacking here :P
They only get up to 1.5 m max. And that's very rare. The average is 1 metre :P But funnily enough, they are said to be very gentle and quite good with children, and they're good snakes for beginner reptile keepers as they're less demanding and temperamental than other snake species :3

hotdogwolf
August 18th, 2013, 08:52 PM
Slight rant here... Animal Planet is complete bull with that show.. I mean I think those stories are based off stuff that happened but it really just depends on if the owner has the funds to PROPERLY care for the exotics.. these animals are in captivity.. and they need good homes -- But I'm of the mindset than if you get the proper licenses (and you should have to be licensed), and pass inpections (and inspection minimum standards should be raised), and you know what your doing.. more power to you.. there is such a surplus of animals that need homes or they're going to be put down... this group pushes for Responsible Exotic Ownership, http://www.rexano.org/ some of these people basically have private zoos, others are Sanctuaries that aren't open to the public or are 'members only', others are open to the public but aren't in the same category as AZA zoos -- places like Valley of the Kings in Wisconsin or Tiger Creek in Tyler TX, are considered private ownership under certain laws, and these places have saved so many cats, and other animals from some of those horrible conditions, and given them a longer life in a lot better, and loving conditions. (nothing like hearing a Puma start purring for nightly pets..) (I interned at a big cat sanctuary)

Also the numbers of animals dying by poor care, neglect or people just realizing they can't handle the animal are much higher than animals eating people. ..I'll have to find the link I can't remember if it's from APHIS or AZA but there is a list of every known exotic animal attack in captivity from 1990-2000 is available to the public.. cases are interesting to read.. but compared to other statistics, the numbers for animal attacks in captivity aren't that huge, or at least not nearly as high as animal planet would have us believe.
I really don't think animal planet is complete bull. What I think they are doing is showing people what would or could happen to people and to WILD animals if people who been thinking about getting an exotic animal as pets. I still will not agree on having a wild animal, Tame or not as a pet. Even if there are people who have the right kind of training and license or the right enclose. The other thing is, What you said about the animals needing good homes or they will be put down. The thing I like to say about that is. There wild animals, There "Home" Is out in the wild not in some persons personal zoo. If there are exotic animals that are going to be put down, Then they should be placed inside a well funded zoo. The other thing is, Look in the news about what was it a year back. When that zoo keeper guy Jake Hanna was on the news talking how he and the police had to put down, I think it was 18 or 22 captive wild animals that some guy let lose before the guy killed himself.

moon touched wolf
August 19th, 2013, 08:27 AM
I have no desire to own a wolf or wolf-hybrid, same sub-species as me or not. I disagree with keeping such animals as pets since wild animals should remain just that, wild. I may not have had much experience with wolves (wrong continents) but I have had the opportunity to get up close and personal to animals like cheetahs (they were being used in a breeding program to try and replenish the numbers). I've also seen cheetah in the wild. Despite the good care the captive cheetahs were receiving I still say the wild ones seemed far happier.
I'm happy with dogs as pets personally, they're close enough to my theriotype to provide the companionship I crave. Course circumstances mean I can't even own a goldfish but when I have my own place, the money and the time then I'll look into adopting a dog from a shelter.

Somnia
August 19th, 2013, 08:37 AM
...The other thing is, What you said about the animals needing good homes or they will be put down. The thing I like to say about that is. There wild animals, There "Home" Is out in the wild not in some persons personal zoo. If there are exotic animals that are going to be put down, Then they should be placed inside a well funded zoo.

The trouble with a lot of rescued exotic pets, such as tigers, wolves, chimps, and many others, is yes even though they are wild animals, releasing them out into the wild would essentially be a death sentence because the animal has lived in captivity for so long they wouldn't know how to hunt or take care of themselves like they should. They need to be rehabilitated and taught how to chase down prey or forage for food in the trees and even have safe interaction with others of their same species before they should be released back into the wild. I know there are a lot of programs that rescue exotics, and try to rehabilitate them to be able to function in the wild. There are a lot of successful rehabilitation stories, but some animals are too far gone to be released back into the wild. They need to live in either a zoo, or a place that specializes in exotic rescues or other places that know what they are doing.